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fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free
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taz456
Posted 2015-04-21 11:36 AM (#172013)
Subject: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Cruiser

Posts: 214
Pittsburgh, PA
I have owned three different Victory motorcycles and have had miles of problem free riding. I still own my 09 Vision and the 11 Hammer. A new gas stationed opened up by me and the guy has a racing background so he has pumps that have racing fuels with high octane ratings like 118 octane. The prices are over $9.00 a gallon but I was told that he also sells ethanol free 89 octane. A co-worker who has been on Goldwings for over 20 years has already switched and claims that he is getting 8 miles more per gallon and a quicker throttle response from his bike. I have always tried to fill up with BP 93 octane. The ethanol free is more expensive but I read that it is better but then I also read that octane ratings are more important then ethanol free is. I am wondering if any one else had any comments on this topic. I believe that Vic states that 91 octane or better.

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sjaskow
Posted 2015-04-21 12:09 PM (#172014 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: RE: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 20
Hastings, MN United States
Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline so you have to burn more to go the same distance. This is why the guy with the Goldwing is getting better mileage with ethanol free gas.

The biggest gripes with ethanol it it does a number on rubber parts once you get above about E15 (15% ethanol) or so since ethanol is corrosive to most rubbers. Most of the gasoline sold today tends to be E10.

I'd err on the side of caution and continue to use the 91 octane even though it contains ethanol.
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willtill
Posted 2015-04-21 12:40 PM (#172015 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1365
Central Maryland
Isn't there an additive that can be added to fuel; to cancel out the ethanol?
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jimtom
Posted 2015-04-21 1:20 PM (#172018 - in reply to #172015)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1301
Sand Rock, AL United States
I run ethanol free 87 all the time unless I'm traveling and can't get it. In summer I might go up to higher octane ethanol free if I have pinging. Ethanol free is readily available where I live. I used it for over 250,000 combined miles in my 99 and my Vision.
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willtill
Posted 2015-04-21 1:23 PM (#172019 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1365
Central Maryland
Ya. but ethanol free (pure gas) is not readily available in other areas of the country (like here) so that is why I asked the question.
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Riverdawg
Posted 2015-04-21 4:34 PM (#172022 - in reply to #172019)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Cruiser

Posts: 160
Camas Washington
Local Chevron station just started providing ethanol free 92. filled up Sunday and rode 200 miles, 49.2 MPG when I normally get 44 or so in my 2011 Vision. Ran much smoother. $3.75 a gallon. They do note on the pump it is not a Chevron product.
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johnnyvision
Posted 2015-04-21 5:33 PM (#172023 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 4270
BP is not ethanol free here are ones that are pure gas
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=OH
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rdbudd
Posted 2015-04-21 9:04 PM (#172027 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: RE: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1594
Jasper, MO
On the rare occasions that I have been able to find ethanol free gas, my 2008 Vision has run better and gets a little better fuel economy.

If it were me, I would try the 89 octane ethanol free gas for a while to see how it works. If the bike doesn't ping under a load, you are good to go.

Ronnie
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lstayner
Posted 2015-04-22 9:05 AM (#172030 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: RE: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Tourer

Posts: 416
Prairie City, IA United States
If the engine is not pinging with 87 octane then use it. All higher octane does is ignite at a slower rate reducing the possibility of a premature explosion (Ping) in the cylinder.

I have 74K miles on my Vision using E10 -90% of the time with no issues.

As far as an ethanol treatment, yes there are a few out there. I would consider using them about as often as I would use an engine oil treatment. Snake oil is snake oil. They all make claims but don't back it up with any proof.
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rdbudd
Posted 2015-04-22 12:11 PM (#172033 - in reply to #172015)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1594
Jasper, MO
willtill - 2015-04-21 12:40 PM

Isn't there an additive that can be added to fuel; to cancel out the ethanol?


As far as I know, there are none that "cancel out" the ethanol, but there are some designed to mitigate the problems associated with the phase separation problems inherent in the ethanol blended gas. They work to stabilize the blend and slow down the phase separation.


Ronnie
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johnnyvision
Posted 2015-04-22 5:35 PM (#172041 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 4270
if you're doing mountain riding or good size hills 87 is not good. It will not give you the power you need
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2015-04-23 5:44 AM (#172052 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 3772
Pittsburgh, PA
i think the main this is... at ($ 9.00 a GALLON) i dont time the increase in fuel economy or even the very slight performance difference would offset the dramatic price difference. i mean what is the highest octane in PA right now (non-racing) $3.00 or Less ? so would a 300% increase in price give you a 300% increase in "anything" ?
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rdbudd
Posted 2015-04-23 9:07 AM (#172056 - in reply to #172052)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1594
Jasper, MO
Arkainzeye - 2015-04-23 5:44 AM

i think the main this is... at ($ 9.00 a GALLON) i dont time the increase in fuel economy or even the very slight performance difference would offset the dramatic price difference. i mean what is the highest octane in PA right now (non-racing) $3.00 or Less ? so would a 300% increase in price give you a 300% increase in "anything" ?


The $9.00 per gallon was for the 118 octane race gas, not the 89 octane ethanol free stuff. He didn't say how much it was.

Ronnie
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taz456
Posted 2015-04-23 2:32 PM (#172067 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Cruiser

Posts: 214
Pittsburgh, PA
Yes the really expensive prices was for the racing fuels. The ethanol free 89 octane is 3.59 a gallon while the 10% ethanol 87 octane rating stuff is selling for in the area for around 2.65 average. However, I have always used BP 93 octane which is probably 50 to 60 cents higher per gallon. For me that means only 50 cents more per gallon. However, I started this thread not about cost savings but asking which is better for my bike and other small motors. I have a gasoline powered Onan generator in the toy hauler, a Honda 3000 inverter/generator for around the house, 2 victory bikes, numerous lawn mower engines for power washers, tractors, tillers and other tools. I had an issue with the carb on the Onan generator. the inside was covered with a greenish tinted film on some it. An out timer at work told me that was the ethanol in the gas.

I don't mind saving money, but at the same time if spending 50 cents more a gallon is better for all the small motors that I have then I will switch in a heart beat. I understand that newer motors are designed to run on the newer blends but if the ethanol is not good for them and leads to damage, I would rather spend a little bit at a time and not have the issues at all. Even the boost in MPG (if true) is not the reason for me asking the question.

I do appreciate all the comments so far keep them coming. I plan on running my tank empty and then running 3 or 4 tanks of the ethanol free stuff to see how it responds. I also plan on filling up the cans in the shed when they need filled. By the way I have friends into boating and the claim that the blended stuff is real bad on the marine engines and that everyone into boating uses ethanol free gasolines. I would not have known that if he didn't tell me.

Edited by taz456 2015-04-23 3:02 PM
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johnnyvision
Posted 2015-04-23 5:49 PM (#172073 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 4270
118 does more harm then good. It overheats your motor
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rdbudd
Posted 2015-04-23 7:43 PM (#172077 - in reply to #172067)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 1594
Jasper, MO
taz456 - 2015-04-23 2:32 PM

Yes the really expensive prices was for the racing fuels. The ethanol free 89 octane is 3.59 a gallon while the 10% ethanol 87 octane rating stuff is selling for in the area for around 2.65 average. However, I have always used BP 93 octane which is probably 50 to 60 cents higher per gallon. For me that means only 50 cents more per gallon. However, I started this thread not about cost savings but asking which is better for my bike and other small motors. I have a gasoline powered Onan generator in the toy hauler, a Honda 3000 inverter/generator for around the house, 2 victory bikes, numerous lawn mower engines for power washers, tractors, tillers and other tools. I had an issue with the carb on the Onan generator. the inside was covered with a greenish tinted film on some it. An out timer at work told me that was the ethanol in the gas.

I don't mind saving money, but at the same time if spending 50 cents more a gallon is better for all the small motors that I have then I will switch in a heart beat. I understand that newer motors are designed to run on the newer blends but if the ethanol is not good for them and leads to damage, I would rather spend a little bit at a time and not have the issues at all. Even the boost in MPG (if true) is not the reason for me asking the question.

I do appreciate all the comments so far keep them coming. I plan on running my tank empty and then running 3 or 4 tanks of the ethanol free stuff to see how it responds. I also plan on filling up the cans in the shed when they need filled. By the way I have friends into boating and the claim that the blended stuff is real bad on the marine engines and that everyone into boating uses ethanol free gasolines. I would not have known that if he didn't tell me.


Marinas are some of the best places to find ethanol free gasoline, although it is usually expensive (like any gas at any marina). Ethanol is slow death to any 2 stroke engine, especially those that use premix fuel. The reason is because of the phase separation that occurs with the ethanol/gasoline blend. The ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts and absorbs water. When it absorbs water, the ethanol/water mix separates out from the gasoline. This is phase separation. The ethanol/water mix is corrosive to the carburetors used in most of the older 2 stroke engines (there's your greenish film). Even worse, the lubricating oil that is supposed to mix with the fuel will not mix with the ethanol/water blend (water and oil do not mix) that phase separates and goes to the bottom of the tank (oil floats on water) and the engine is starved for lubrication.

Small engines, especially older ones, and definitely any that have 2 stroke engines, should not be run on ethanol gas.

A buddy of mine runs a small engine repair shop. He loves ethanol gas. It has been great for his repair business.

Ronnie
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donetracey
Posted 2015-04-24 12:13 AM (#172078 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada
Like the birds love to sing: "Cheap, Cheap, Cheap ...."

You are getting 40-50 MPG - just fill it with PREMIUM GAS for best performance. Cheap, Cheap, Cheap ...

Don't create a problem when one doesn't exist - go look at pretty girls or something ...
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pollolittle
Posted 2015-04-24 6:45 AM (#172082 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 2017
Brighton, TN
Ethanol free for all the small stuff stuff that doesn't get run very often. Yes the green tint that you can scrape out of the bowl is the result of the ethanol. Much of what ronnie says I agree with if not all. If that onan surges, it's because the green tint has got it clogged like you found out. Found that out myself. All tHe big motor stuff gets ethanol Unless it has a carb on it. I bought an ultrasonic cleaner to just try and manage all the carbs using ethanol. I was almost a small engine repair shop just for my own gear. I never could get a carb totally clean just using carb dip and spray. There are internal passages u just can't spray. Dunk in the ultrasonic and wa la machinery runs like neW. Love that thing.
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2015-04-25 5:50 AM (#172100 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 3772
Pittsburgh, PA
I'm confused.... (sorry). if it was about being better for the bike? And this was a isolated gas station that sold this type of fuel how beneficial would it be for the over all "health" of the motorcycle if you only used it when you were near that gas station ? What about on a trip? Then what happens? it almost reminds me of, only taking your medicines/vitamins when you remembered, not every day. ?? Would there be a true over all benefit? Just wondering that's all.
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savage
Posted 2015-04-25 8:02 AM (#172101 - in reply to #172073)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Cruiser

Posts: 228

118 will not overheat your motor. It will not give you more power unless you need the octane to control pre-ignition due to high compression or advanced timing. Higher octane fuels burn slower and cooler. This is how they control pre-ignition, they burn not explode.

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Arkainzeye
Posted 2015-04-25 8:08 AM (#172102 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 3772
Pittsburgh, PA
http://pure-gas.org/
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taz456
Posted 2015-04-25 11:27 AM (#172105 - in reply to #172102)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Cruiser

Posts: 214
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks for the link. I started this thread due to my recent Onan generator carb issue combined with my buddy who told me about the ethanol free station that just opened up in my general area. While this all happened within a few days of each other, I began to research a little bit about the smaller engines and the issues that some have related to the use of ethanol blended gas. When my gold wing riding friend mentioned 8 MPG increase, I thought I would post here to see what others thought about it. From my research, there is NO downside to using the ethanol free stuff except that it costs a little more than what I am currently using. If the bike does have quicker throttle response and increases my mileage by 5-8 MPG, to me it is worth the extra 40 - 60 cents per gallon to give it a try. Keep in mind that I have seen evidence first hand regarding the green film I found in the Onan's carb. If it is doing that to that fuel system, isn't it reasonable to to conclude that it is also doing something to other fuel systems? The only thing ever to enter the fuel cell of my toy hauler was 91 octane or better and STA-BIL fuel stabilizer. Nothing else ever was put into it. Now that I have a reasonably close supply of the ethanol free, I plan on trying it out.

Just like my desire to use only BP 93, there were times that I was running low and had to fill up with other stuff. If needed, I can use the blended stuff and then return to the ethanol free stuff.
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Daddio
Posted 2015-04-27 11:17 AM (#172138 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


New user

Posts: 3
Black Hills, SD
Run what makes your bike NOT ping. Since higher octane fuels burn slower (less volatile) they may not be burning completely, thus leaving carbon deposits, until the carbon builds up to the point of requiring high-octane fuels to prevent pinging. Ethanol actually costs more to produce, but costs less to the consumer via direct and tax subsidies. As someone else pointed out above, ethanol blends do not store well, so if you are storing fuel for more than a month or so, buy ethanol-free.
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IRON RANGER
Posted 2015-04-27 3:23 PM (#172142 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


New user

Posts: 3
Just like Daddio says. Run the lowest octane you can without pinging under hard accelleration in 5th gear. 87 octane will flash burn quicker and leave behind the least carbon. I'm lucky here, a new Racetrack gas station is selling 87 non-ethanol so I fill up two 5gal cans once a week. The Vision will only see ethanol when I'm out of town. Avoid carbon like the plague, 93 octane isn't always the "good stuff" unless your engine is high compression. Ride safe my friends.
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johnnyvision
Posted 2015-04-27 6:29 PM (#172146 - in reply to #172013)
Subject: Re: fuel type question high octane vs ethanol free


Visionary

Posts: 4270
on that 3 letter forum a guy asked about unplugging his 02's and did it make it run rich.
Kevinx said
Depending on fuel source, and riding habits. MPG may vary greatly. The use of premium fuels in mostly stock Vics is also a cause of pops, and low MPG. Your o2 unplugged will not cause a fouled plug
Then some one said i have been running premium thinking it would perform better
Kevinx said
Yup....The recommended octane is for the dumbest person in the worst conditions. If it is below 95 degrees F. Then you are simply creating carbon build up with premium.
Kevinx was not talking about camed motors
I did read where Kevinx said if your going to use up the whole tank of gas in a day or two then ethionel is ok but don't make a habit of it



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